Curse

Motoko · Sep 21, 2009, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadeleaper

I've had this game for over four years now, I played through factions happily, and PvP has always been my forte.

If this statement was true, we would not be having this conversation.

Almost every single team has a ritualist on their team.

Zahr Dalsk · Sep 21, 2009, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

After a few weeks with overpowered spirits even most casual players would not like to see them anymore.

No one wants them overpowered, we just want them balanced.

As matters stand right now, they are underpowered.

Giga_Gaia · Sep 22, 2009, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Sounds like you've never actually seen the old spirit spammer back in the days when factions was introduced. They were so overpowered, hence Anet took the easy route and simply nerfed them to hell.

And a MM is stronger than a spirit spammer? Not unless you play stuff like AB/FA/JQ where corpses are everywhere. Play any other arena, and MM's are useless. A spirit spammer can summon stuff out of thin air that allows for stuff like damage mitigration, enchant removal, blindness, knockdowns, and damage.

While I agree that rits have been receiving the paragon treatment for a while now, rebuffing them now will probably make things worse.

Desert Rose · Sep 22, 2009, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

No one wants them overpowered, we just want them balanced.

Balance = equilibrium between effort and reward.
Laying spirits is very easy, so spirits must be weak. If they are as powerful as other options that are harder to pull off they are overpowered.
With the current design of spirits they are either overpowered or underpowered, and without a complete revision never something in between.

I've found two more detailed posts why spirits got nerfed:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Spirits have long range. They can be cast and placed where it is not really possible (assuming an even match up between teams) to interrupt or kill spirits. Anyone that saw the old Rit Lord communing rits back during factions remembers this.

If spirit spam is less effective at support than a midline then spirit spam is going to be ignored in favor of midline (as is currently the case). If spirit spam is as effective or more effective than a midliner then spirit spam is going to be overpowered. Combine this with the lack of skill needed to effective play a spirit spammer and you will see that it is a playstyle that shouldn't be encouraged.

Yes the whole commuting like sucks now, but it was a poorly designed mechanic and better a poorly designed mechanic that isn't used than forcing a poorly designed mechanic into the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

In any remotely even matchup it is possible to cast spirits where you run no risk of interruption, little risk of spirit death, but still cover the battlefield.

If you are getting interrupted and having your spirits killed then, either your placement is beyond echo mending whammo levels of incompetence, or your team is getting steamrolled and it wouldn't matter anyway.

IntrospectivePirate · Sep 22, 2009, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

You should enjoy the fact that rits have imbalanced concepts such as un-removable weapons. Being able to snare, provide buffed defense, solo split, and party heals all on one character is a pretty signicant ability.

I agree. I will go as far to say that rits are the ULTIMATE multitaskers of GW.

IntrospectivePirate · Sep 22, 2009, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

A ritualist is an essential segment of GvG these days. How can say you say PvP is your forte and you not notice that?

Almost every single team has a ritualist on their team.

Further has anyone here who is beset by woe about the ritualist's pvp condition tried playing rit on something as simple as FA kurz side for instance? I am surprised that a rit has not become standard for the kurzicks in this arena. A single rit can pretty much hold everything together provided his/her teammates are not sitting idle.

Zahr Dalsk · Sep 22, 2009, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Balance = equilibrium between effort and reward.
Laying spirits is very easy, so spirits must be weak. If they are as powerful as other options that are harder to pull off they are overpowered.

Spirits as they stand now are disproportionately easy to eliminate in comparison to the cost, recharge, cast time, etc, of the skills required to create them.

This is not balanced.

IntrospectivePirate · Sep 22, 2009, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Now to address some things directly.

"And I realized that the build I thought would be decent in AB is terrible for this one simple reason."

-no one guarantees that you will be able to use a pve build in pvp obviously. We are all in the same boat on this one.

"3 seconds to cast a single spirit is not friggin worth it. I have 5 spirits on my bar. One being shadowsong which is a 5 second cast. Shadowsong only lives for 30 seconds."

From GuildWiki.

"Create a level 1...8 spirit. The spirit's attacks cause Blindness for 1...5 seconds. This spirit dies after 30 seconds. "

-right five second cast. This is subjective of course, but when put to good use this skill is quite powerful and a very effective thorn in the side of anyone using melee or projectile weapons. It offers a little bit of offense, but significant defense by blinding classes which have some serious damage out put.

"Imagine a situation where you have an assassin charging towards you so you cast shadowsong......"

- i hate to say this, but no one in their right mind would try casting shadowsong with an assassin charging them even at a three second cast. Firstly, it may be a caster assassin in which case shadowsong is a waste of time. Secondly, assassins are notoriously quick, and have good interrupt potential (argh not too mention they can teleport to you.) Shadowsong is a good skill. But, this is not a good way to use it.

"And the point I'm trying to make is that you can't use spirits effectively in PvP...."

-Spirits are very effective as pointed out before in previous posts. there is enough time if you use them properly (very effective). They are useful in RA TA AB protecting shrines etc etc... anywhere it takes time for your opponent to get to you. this is not to say they are simply defensive. I have seen many a good rit put spirits to use in pressuring the enemy. This is in blinding melee, interrupting skills, or simply making an ally live longer than the enemy expects (resto)......

pain is a week spirit that is why it lasts so long

As for you last section.

"While a good skill set exists there, most of the boons you get from channeling require that you have a spirit in earshot, which again means the build is lacking viability."

If you are in a crush for a spirit think outside the box, or in this case perhaps in it. One suggestion, ever here of the spirit in the box spell? drop it ...and POOF instant spirit. (i suppose this skill still exists) Not to mention alot of the benefits for which you need a spirit present are quite powerful. I feel this is an excellent way to balance those benefits.

End

Keep playing
learning
living

Guild Wars

BTW spirits are not so easy to eliminate with a good player breathing down your neck. They are worth the time, energy, effort, and cleverness needed to employ them well.

shadeleaper · Sep 22, 2009, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

A ritualist is an essential segment of GvG these days. How can say you say PvP is your forte and you not notice that?

Almost every single team has a ritualist on their team.

You can't go around buffing skills. You will only re-enter what this game has experienced since Nightfall was introduced. Random buffing has only caused this game problems.

GvG does not equal PvP. I do JQ, RA, AB, FA, TA, etc. etc.

And I highly doubt that the rit is a crucial component of every team and is using spirits. Likely you're referring to resto rits, which is by and large the least affected by whether or not they use spirits.

And I do believe that this isn't random buffing. It's calling for balance, not OP spirits nor nerfed catastrophes. The a rit using spirits is nearly useless right now in PvP. I seek to change that is all.

shadeleaper · Sep 22, 2009, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Desert Rose, those quotes seem to be lacking knowledge of a spirit's lifespan and recharge. You cannot sit away from a battle, lay down your spirits, and wait for your enemies to run into your very visible trap. It doesn't work like that.

Introspective Pirate, you cannot honestly be trying to say in one moment that shadowsong is good, and the next that shadowsong is a skill that no one in their right mind would use it when being attacked.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see any valid points being made here. You try to tell me that spirits are effective, yet I don't see them being used. The recharge and cast time is ridiculous. The lifespan is ridiculous. Their defense doesn't exist. It can't even run out of an aoe for crying out loud. Yet there are complaints that you can't kill em?

Sorry, but my point still stands, spirits are useless in PvP right now, and saying "omg resto rits and weapons are just fine" has nothing to do with this conversation. Go play some JQ using spirits and try telling me it's balanced.

Xiaxhou of Trinity · Sep 22, 2009, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

These people are a minority, though; why should the majority of player base suffer to make them happy?

HA and GvG are all good and well, but RA and AB and the like are where most of PvP players are at (due to rampant elitism and hostility in HA) and when most of your paying customers are skewed to one particular area it's best to cater to them.

Same reason Anet finally implemented PvE/PvP split, so the majority would no longer suffer from the bitchy PvP players.

it's called GUILDWARS....GvG is the highest form of pvp in the game. second to that, HA. Old days, HA gained favor = UW+FoW riches.

HA still leads to a nice high end chest...and having your team advertised to everybody online.

RA and AB are the lowest forms of PvP....therefore, those are lower on Anet's skill balance priority list. Spirits work well enough in PvP, they're not completely gimped. Spawning power is the only thing that needs to be fixed...not necessarily cast times of spirits.

Desert Rose · Sep 22, 2009, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadeleaper

Desert Rose, those quotes seem to be lacking knowledge of a spirit's lifespan and recharge. You cannot sit away from a battle, lay down your spirits, and wait for your enemies to run into your very visible trap. It doesn't work like that.

You seem to be lacking knowledge how players played spirit spammers when they were useable.
In the case of defensive spirits like Union, Shelter and Displacement it's was exactly like Reverend Dr desribed; people were standing one to two aggro circles behind thier own team, spamming these spirits and doing nothing else.
In the case of offensive spirits like bloodsong it's exactly how you desribed. You cast your spirits outside of the battle and wait until your opponent rushes into them. Of course your opponent will most likely don't be stupid enough to rush into your spirits but waits outside of the range of your spirits until you come out. So in the end you have two teams that stand before each other doing... nothing.
Most players doesn't want either of these playstyles back into the game.

Quote:

you cannot honestly be trying to say in one moment that shadowsong is good, and the next that shadowsong is a skill that no one in their right mind would use it when being attacked.

Trying to cast a five-second skill while likely being interrupted, heavily damaged or even death before the skill goes off is something noone on their right mind would do regardless how effective the skill is.

shadeleaper · Sep 22, 2009, 04:05 PM // 16:05

On shadowsong, I agree. No one in their right mind would use it. Which only proves my point. And any player with a brain would wait for it to die before rushing in. Given the short lifespan of this spirit it is impossible to use for defense because it is only a short wait for it to die. Impossible to use offensively due to a long cast time.

Now I think some people are assuming that I want a blanket buff for all spirits and to this I have to say is my own fault for not being clear. By balance I mean that each skill should be reworked. For example, reduce the cast time for an offensive skill like pain. But for a defensive skill like union, perhaps increase the lifespan. The play style would then shift so that defensive spirits are able to be played defensively while offensive spirits can actually be cast and used in the midst of combat.

Zahr Dalsk · Sep 22, 2009, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaxhou of Trinity

it's called GUILDWARS

A misnomer. It's named after a period in the setting's history called The Guild Wars, a series of wars between powerful guilds that controlled most of Tyria at the time. Not after the GvG gametype. Check your manual if you like

shadeleaper · Sep 22, 2009, 04:59 PM // 16:59

It does seem as though the people protesting any sort of buff are all GvG fanatics or complaining that the old way was too OP. Funny that that's the main argument considering that I never said I wanted a return to the old spirit spammer build.

Desert Rose · Sep 22, 2009, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadeleaper

On shadowsong, I agree. No one in their right mind would use it.

No, i was talking about skills with a "high" casting time in general, i didn't make a statement about a single skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadeleaper

Funny that that's the main argument considering that I never said I wanted a return to the old spirit spammer build.

Actually, you did:

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadeleaper

But for a defensive skill like union, perhaps increase the lifespan.

Spirits are broken and can't be balanced by modifying their numbers alone, they need a complete overhaul, but that's very unlikely to happen because ANet pleased the PvE-crowd by buffing spirits to insane levels in PvE and PvP-players never missed them.

Anyway, a possible idea for defensive spirits: Greatly decrease range (less than shout range), decrease casting time to 2 or 3 seconds, increase level by 1 or 2, greatly decrease life loss.
Offensive spirits need to have more player input in order to be effective, for example activate the special blind attack of Shadowsong manually.

Motoko · Sep 22, 2009, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadeleaper

GvG does not equal PvP. I do JQ, RA, AB, FA, TA, etc. etc.

And I highly doubt that the rit is a crucial component of every team and is using spirits. Likely you're referring to resto rits, which is by and large the least affected by whether or not they use spirits.

And I do believe that this isn't random buffing. It's calling for balance, not OP spirits nor nerfed catastrophes. The a rit using spirits is nearly useless right now in PvP. I seek to change that is all.

Your argument is weak.

First of all: GvG is the epitome of PvP. If Anet kept ONE format of PvP that exists in this game, they would keep GvG. Keep in mind most of the skill balances (notice I said most not all) have centered around GvG.

Someone with a "forte" in PvP should know that fact.

If your reasoning in arguing FOR spirit rits is that they are useless... Lets take a look at the other professions...

Warrior... I don't see many tactics warriors, we should buff tactics!
Rangers... I don't see anymore trappers... Trappers need buff!
Monks... I don't see any more smiters! wtf! fix please!
Assassin... I can no longer easily kill anything that has terrible position... BUFF!

Do you see where I am going?

There are somethings that have existed in the game (i.g. spirit rits).
But those things have caused a meta and a game to become worse than intended, Anet had enough sense to take them out of the game.

Be glad you have a ritualist class at all.

Zahr Dalsk · Sep 22, 2009, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

Warrior... I don't see many tactics warriors, we should buff tactics!
Rangers... I don't see anymore trappers... Trappers need buff!
Monks... I don't see any more smiters! wtf! fix please!
Assassin... I can no longer easily kill anything that has terrible position... BUFF!

Tactics does need a buff, because currently it is useless and there should not be useless attribute lines. Smiting ought to be looked at eventually, rather than simply be killed off. And I assume you're one of those people who think there's a problem with shadow steps.

shadeleaper · Sep 22, 2009, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Gladiator, you are so full of fail I don't even know where to start. Assassin's can't kill? Wtf? Smiters aren't around? Ever hear of RoJ? Trappers are definitely still around, not as prolific as before, but they're definitely still around. I've seen them many times playing a primarily defensive role in JQ and AB protecting shrines. And as for warriors, I haven't used my war in awhile so I can't say for sure, but based on your previous statements it's likely that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

I really couldn't give a damn about GvG or HA. I played in HA up until the introduction of IWAY, got my deer and quit. HA is primarily elitists playing, and GvG is much of the same. Hardcore players love these two arenas but guess what? A-Net's main customer base is casual players who don't focus on these two aspects of the game, primarily because they are CASUAL PLAYERS. So stop humping the metaphorical leg of GvG and open your eyes to the possibility that people do other things with the game than just that, and there are many more forms of PvP that are widely loved.

Desert Rose: your suggestion for defensive spirits are just even more nerfing. Decrease range and effectiveness, but increase the level by one and decrease casting time? That would actually nerf them further. I would agree that decreasing the range could bring defensive spirits into a balanced format, but if we do that then they should remain just as effective as before. Especially since decreasing the range would force defensive spirits to cluster together to protect a target area and would make them vulnerable to any sort of aoe.

However I do like the general direction this is going. How about this: decrease range, increase lifespan, effectiveness of skill remains the same, cast time remains the same, level increases by 1 or 2? For a defensive spirit this would be good as it would force players to setup defense ahead of time strategically, yet it would limit those spirits in such a way that people couldn't use them for blanket protection of a wide area, nor could they easily cast these spirits during a battle as group wide protection. It would force them to protect key areas, choke points, etc. and it would force players to plan for it.

I would consider that to be more balanced than the current system only because for a defensive spirit, lifespan is crucial. To be useful they need the extra lifespan so that you can set them up ahead of the battle to provide some protection. Otherwise, other team just waits for them to die and then it's GG, your skill set is useless.

Aljasha · Sep 22, 2009, 09:39 PM // 21:39

ritualists are fine, spirits are too. they are the profession they used to be, a hybrid of monk and ele and should heal less and deal less damage (both is decent, though), which they do. ritus are still useful and have a long history in gvg, which speaks for themselves.

mindless buffing of ritu spirits in general would shift the meta back to spikes with at least two ritus in the main team. i can't say i would greet them with respect.

since ritu spirits only count towards the own team, i'd suggest to allow only two active (one offensive and one defensive spirit) spirits in the same area in pvp.

then izzy could slightly buff spirits in general, while keeping their vulnerability.